Mary Glowacka 0:00

Everyone has something to contribute to that transformation, whether it's at Rolls Royce or anywhere else in the organization and your people are your competitive advantage because what else differentiates you from the market?

Chris Rainey 0:19

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the HR leaders podcast. On today's episode, I'm joined by Mary glow Akka, who's the Global Head of Learning and Leadership Development at Rolls Royce. During episode Mary shares how Rolls Royce is investing in people during this transformational journey, how to stay ahead in a rapidly changing business world. And lastly, she shares how Rolls Royces people first approach increases innovation. As always, probably jump to the podcast, make sure you hit the subscribe button. Turn on notification bell and follow us on your favorite podcast platform. But that being said, let's jump in.

Mary, welcome to the show. How are you? Oh, Chris. Hi, thanks. I'm great. How are you? Why are we getting ready? We haven't even started yet. And we're just already giggling this is what it's all about is let's go. Anyway. Yeah, I'm really well, actually really well. Very,

Mary Glowacka 1:11

very excited for every day to be honest, or as good. So it's raining today in London, but I have sunshine in my heart. How many times? When did you make that line up? Just now Chris? I was just looking at you the top of the

Chris Rainey 1:25

line. Yeah. So even though you haven't been in London for?

Mary Glowacka 1:28

Oh, God. Great question. 16 years with a couple of breaks. I was in Spain for a couple of years up until last year. But otherwise, yes. 16 years. Ah, great question. personal things brought me hearing. Maybe

Chris Rainey 1:48

I'll get into it. It's not like

Mary Glowacka 1:50

long gone. Long gone. Yeah. Yes. And just really life threw me here. To be honest. There wasn't ever any grand plan or London that can make you stay don't like what I was actually first than Bristol for three years when I emigrated to the UK. I love Bristol. I really think it's lacks pace of life. Now. There is a little bit of everything there a great music scene. Yes.

Chris Rainey 2:16

And my friends DJ down there a lot. Oh, yeah. And that's a couple of them live there. And then really random fact, every single Saturday for like three years. I used to go to Bristol every Saturday to perform. Because we used to get paid to dance in the clubs like Google break dancers. No way calling Academy, you know? Yes. So we used to get paid to go and just break dance performance stage. And my friend would DJ we did that for three years. Every single weekend. It was such a fun, hire like yeah, like I get paid to dance. It's amazing. So I was like, Yeah, this was really cool.

Mary Glowacka 2:53

Such a cool place. So I was there for three years before my career really took me to London. And I've been in London ever since. Yeah, with, apart from the last couple of years, while I was in Spain. So

Chris Rainey 3:08

it's everyone where you are now what you're up to.

Mary Glowacka 3:09

So I'm at Ross rose, civil, aerospace, defense power systems, Global Head of learning and leadership development. I joined the company last last year as part of the strategic transformation team. So we've had our new CEO on board since January 2023. And we have embarked as an organization on a six year transformation, wow. Plan

Chris Rainey 3:44

and Plan for six years given the you know, it's quite hard to have a six year plan when things are so disruptive and things are moving so quickly. Yes,

Mary Glowacka 3:54

it's a tough one. But look, the plan is the plan is divided into smaller pieces. Let's put it that way. So there is a continuation of a continuous review and so on. But the aim is that we'll hit our ambitions as part of the transformation plan in about six years. Wow.

Chris Rainey 4:15

Yes Is that way because that knowing you does that what excited you about the fact that you going into a company with a huge transformation, you'd like to put yourself in hard roles, you know, a compliment to you by the way,

Mary Glowacka 4:28

you know what I will say? Because I told you this before Chris I is business as usual. It's not really for me. I I thrive on change and that's not really just in my professional life. I I've just operated like that since I can remember. I thrive on change. I think it really goes down to some of my beliefs. I I love life. I think variety is the spice of life.

Chris Rainey 5:02

I love it is the spice of life. I

Mary Glowacka 5:05

also love cooking so you might get Okay.

Chris Rainey 5:10

Variety is what was it again, variety

Mary Glowacka 5:12

is the spice of life of that. And I really live by that rule that you shut down. Yeah. Next time, Chris. We're gonna rock up on the same T shirts with that. Yeah. Yeah, so I think I think where it's coming from is that I truly believe that change is inevitable. I'm not. I don't expect anything to stay the same. Every you chose the right job, then yeah, so I chose a while might be the right job picked me right. And I always think of my dad, when I talk of change, because my dad instilled in me a philosophy of what I just said, the change is inevitable. And he would always say to me that there are only three things in life that are guaranteed, and that's death, taxes, and change. And I always say to dad these days that well, these days, for a billionaire, the tax piece might not be that.

Chris Rainey 6:16

likable, who's about to say to billionaires live longer? All right, yeah, they definitely could have won in taxes. Yeah.

Mary Glowacka 6:23

Yeah. So So I do thrive on change. And I like helping organizations that take change. Seriously, I like to help them to get there. What I mean, take change seriously. What I mean by that, specifically, is companies that really understand that on only the people who are in that company can make that change happen. And it cannot be a very exclusive select group of people somewhere at the top of the house in the ivory tower, everybody needs to contribute to transforming a business, everyone has something to contribute to that transformation, whether it's at Rolls Royce, or anywhere else in the organization. And your people are your competitive advantage, because what else differentiates you from the market? I mean, our CEO, excuse me, will say that and have said that, that, you know, any product, any service can be technically replicated quite easily. Yeah. Some may take longer, whatever. But what you can't really replicate in any company is the set of people that is in that company. That's a unique set of people. And now what are you going to do as a company to make the most of that talent that you have? And how do we use strategy as an engagement tool in the company really. And that's how we see our strategy as well, this transformation strategy, it's a tool to engage the company to create really good energy. So we sail all in the same direction as one organization with clear goals. And we pull on the right people in the right moments, and we drive to those goals together.

Chris Rainey 8:29

I fully agree with everything you're saying there? And is that down the lens that you look through when you in the team sit down and think about creating the strategy? This is how do you think about it, when you when you're looking at building the six year transformation? What are the different lenses you're looking for? When you think about that, how I

Mary Glowacka 8:47

see it is I will usually start from the what and the how, okay, and the what we need to do? You know, for me, it's important to have that big, hairy, audacious goal, but how you're gonna get there. It may literally change on a daily basis, particularly in this day and age where, you know, I mean, the pace of changes is just incredible. We just can't keep up as human beings.

Chris Rainey 9:16

You've got to stick to your plan. But your point you're saying doesn't mean it's going to be a straight line? No,

Mary Glowacka 9:21

it's never going to be a straight line. It's like a river that just meanders through that plan all the time. And you've got to find a way to energize, engage and align people towards that big, hairy, audacious goal. So we can meander together rather than Well, if one of the goalposts changes, then all the people will just suddenly go in different directions. No, no, no, come back here. We still have the same goal at the top. Yeah, but maybe we need to turn right today rather than what we thought we may have, rather than when we thought may We need to turn left. Yeah.

Chris Rainey 10:01

How's it? How's that made you reimagine your HR strategy, then the way you deploy it?

Mary Glowacka 10:06

I mean it all. For me, it always starts from the business strategy. So what do we need to deliver as a business? And we help the business get there on the how we're gonna get they, through our people as well. There's

Chris Rainey 10:25

no such thing as it's almost like, you're both strategies away in the same you don't have a HR strategy. You have a business strategy, you just have a business strategy. Exactly. Or as part of that, absolutely. No. goes back to what you said to me earlier. Otherwise, you end up just becoming an order taker. At that point, does that make sense?

Mary Glowacka 10:43

Yes, absolutely, you need to you need to create that space at the table for yourself. And how you do it is by showing up as a strategic business partner, as an advisor as a, as a sounding board to your business partners. And I also often what I find interesting in the language that we use in HR, HR in the business, we are the business, I say that all the time drives me crazy. Why HR and the business? Yeah. Why are we an exception? You know, what we don't say to about any other function? No, we don't say sales in the business, right? It's true. Yeah. And I don't know where this is coming from? Is this coming from HR wanted to differentiate itself? What

Chris Rainey 11:39

do you think about the HR, the name of HR business partners as well? They're just business partners. We define it as HR business. What do you think about that one? call themselves marketing business? Yes. All right. All sales business partners like is, is the business. Yes. If for some reason, hrs, Slack is trying to justify its own existence.

Mary Glowacka 12:02

And I wonder if that's where it's coming from that legacy needs to differentiate yourself? Because maybe in the past, you felt like no one listened to you. So you needed to carve out that space? Yeah. And part of that process was, well, let's create our own language. And let's differentiate ourselves. And then that will be a positive thing. Oh, yeah. Whereas you have to be integrated. I mean, I just don't even know how else it can work. You are the business in simple terms reduce another department?

Chris Rainey 12:37

Yeah, so I think it would be what I think we've we've made a lot of progress, though. Would you agree? 100%?

Mary Glowacka 12:42

Depends where you go in different organizations, the maturity of the relationship between HR teams and and the rest of the business will differ. How do you

Chris Rainey 12:55

when you talk, you've been part of so many big companies, when you go for your interview process, really random question, how do you know whether they're, those are the right companies that are truly see HR? As part of the business? Is there any like, particular things you do during the interview process? That also how do you really know? Because sometimes you don't know until you get on the inside? And then you're like, oh, no, this is not what I signed up for, which I speak to many leaders promised a dream they get in, like, how have you navigated that to ensure that? Is this truly a company that's invested in HR and sees HR as the business and the business agent?

Mary Glowacka 13:32

Well, I would suggest you need to know all of that before you go to an interview actually

Chris Rainey 13:37

read Okay, before we even interview, Yeah, how'd you find out?

Mary Glowacka 13:43

constantly scanning the horizon, constantly learning about what's going on in the world in these different companies, building your network that learning a lot of that from your network. And then

Chris Rainey 13:58

get honest feedback from people that already there. People forget that there is such thing as a network you go into, because

Mary Glowacka 14:05

look, I think also my work quite a lot with young people are at the beginning of their careers. And this is one of the ongoing topic of our conversations in different situations. And I always ask them one thing who promised you that it will be easy? And companies? Where is that expectation coming from? That something will be easy. That's the everyone. Every single day that is around you will open every door for you will want to help you will want you to succeed. Who promised you that? No one promised me that I don't I don't operate on the assumption that someone is going to open every door for me or I tried to be as self sufficient as possible. So The point I'm really trying to make here is no company is perfect. Why would it be? Every company is a collection of flawed people. We are flawed human beings, we're beautiful creatures. And part of humanity is that we have flaws, and it's okay. So if we apply that logic, then you should expect challenges in your organization. And, frankly, if we was all perfect, I mean, we wouldn't have jobs. Right? And we'd

Chris Rainey 15:43

be so your point, though, early in the conversation, you probably wouldn't be as excited and motivated, for example, like you, I'm always looking at challenge being. And if I walked into a job where everything was perfect, and I wasn't being challenged, I'd be bored. Well, I want to be in difficult hard roles that forced me to grow as a developer. And that's not easy. That's hard. There are sometimes I like, Why did I do this? We all had that feeling. But I wouldn't I wouldn't change that. Yeah, for an easy, everything's amazing.

Mary Glowacka 16:17

But you make a really important point they you asked, just now in the moment, why do I do it? So that I get up every morning, and this is what gets me going. It really boils down to your own intrinsic motivation. What do you want from life? What do you want from work? A lot of the conversation right now.

Chris Rainey 16:43

A lot of people speak to they can't answer that question.

Mary Glowacka 16:45

Why do you think that is?

Chris Rainey 16:49

I don't know. I've asked like, because I suppose easy example. Like this weekend, I had a switch on my friends. And he was like, Oh, you're not coming out. You're working like quite like, and I'm like, No, I haven't I enjoy it. So he said as a negative. I was like, No, I'm, I'm, I'm like working as in like, I'm happy to say it's a work. What do you mean? It's the weekend? I'm like, always, and I'm like, okay, maybe that's one thing that I enjoy what I do, and I forget that. It feels like a lot of people I speak to don't enjoy what they do. It's just, you know, the vast majority, maybe it's just my network, but most majority people I speak to, they don't fully in, enjoy what I do. So maybe that's part of it.

Mary Glowacka 17:34

I mean, it's a tough one, because, look, I am a working class person, right? So first of all, my default is I have to work. But I found something in my life. That gives me so much joy and drive. And why would I not to be happy that I do things that I can that enable me to contribute something, learn, grow, be happy, be excited, solve some really complex issues. But again, that's me, that's what I need. Some other people might not need it. But then you know, what's on my mind at the moment for examples, purpose and culture, right when I think of our transformation as well. And it's one of those funny things for me that I think people look for that purpose these days in their organizations tell me what is the purpose? What is our vision for our mission, okay, but what's the purpose, right, and how I can find a way as an employee in this company to align myself to that purpose. But I challenge that a little bit because you don't necessarily need to have the same purpose as your enterprise wide purpose. So for example, I don't get up every morning being very excited about jet engines. But what excites me is that I have a role in this transformation, for instance, to help an earth incredible talent that builds those engines. And I want to find ways on the systemic level, so company wide for people to enjoy that process. Yeah, because I also think Joy should be an intrinsic part of work, but you cannot expect that the company will come to you every day. And tell you how to find that job. What are you doing, to find your own purpose in that hole? broader ecosystem that

Chris Rainey 20:01

you're acquiring ownership and yes, interesting. And

Mary Glowacka 20:04

again, that's, that's, that's a big part of my conversations with Jen Zeds. Because sometimes, you know, they asked me different questions, and they're like, Well, you know, employee engagement. And, you know, we want this, we want that. Mike, okay, what are you doing every day? To keep yourself going? Where is it going? Where is the expectation coming from? That someone should? Does anyone come to you, Chris every day and say, Grace, you there

Chris Rainey 20:32

are there. There are what I started in, obviously, in early in my career, the act, the things that I'm hearing people were interviewing or Gen Z asking for, it's not actually not even just me as anyone actually, that I'm interviewing. They're asking for a lot of these things that I just never have never heard before. That's why they expect it as you get to your point. It's not earned or it's not, you're taking it upon yourself. To do that. It's like it's expected that the company has every single one listening for you. But there is a part of own ownership and also earning, earning as well, which I love what you're saying. And the purpose piece is really interesting, because like, you know, I didn't I in my last company, we did events, right? Like across different industries. I didn't wake up every day being like, I can't wait to do another Expo. My purpose is aligned with expos. But what I realized is my what my one of the things I loved in that company, which connected me to my purpose was I have a purpose statement. So my purpose statement is to be the unbreakable artist that dancers user life says all words that relate to me so unbreakable artist is for my passion, passion of art. And I reason I use unbreakable artist is I always I'm trying to challenge the status quo, unbreakable in my focus on constantly innovating, and running against the wind that everyone's telling me don't gotta race ombre. And so I use artist because it's a word that dancers use for life, which is the point I was going to get to also grew up dancing, I met my wife through dancing, and dances, the life is my analogy of the thing I get the most joy out of is helping people grow and developing their careers. It's nothing that means more to me than seeing someone come in and grow and develop and shine and, and so that's sort of the unbreakable artistic dancers utilize is the employee growth, and actually drew a huge picture that represents that painted a whole canvas, which represents this, but to your point. That's why I was excited about the development of my team, not doing exhibitions, and events to solve business problems, as well. But I do think employees do need help coming to that conclusion, because it's not easy. So I didn't come to that conclusion on my own. I went to a one day workshop two day workshop where we kind of went deep into discovery, and that we came out of that because I didn't understand it, but everyone really can connect to so I do think there's help us organizations that we can Unilever have an amazing program that I was lucky to be part of, or at least witness where they had 15,000 leaders go through their purpose to impact training, where they sort of talk about how you connect that but against that individual, to your point not to David's specific products, but how they're making an impact, as well. But you're the first person I've ever heard bring up like, who's to say it's going to be easy? I think just so real. No one's saying it's so sure. It's hard. When I first started to question my first job. Now, people were expecting everything to be roses. And like an easy No, no growth happens in that place. No, no grew up. Maybe it's part of our upbringing, maybe because it was really hard. Maybe it's also that part of it. Because I grew up in a really, really difficult upbringing. When I came into the business, I'm like, this is nothing. Yes, it's hard. But I'm like, this is where I've had the most growth, as well. So it's hard, though, as in a company to do that. Because they're probably worried about not attracting, like, how do you position that new employee value proposition to people like, Hey, this is going to be really tough, but it's going to be so rewarding to you as well. It's tough. It's tough.

Mary Glowacka 24:11

It's complex, because we're dealing with people and there will be a combination of different factors that contribute to how people think collectively and individually about things like how do I build personal resilience? Or what are my expectations from life or from my employer? There will be factors like your upbringing, there will be factors like your cultural background, you know, I'm Eastern European, for instance, we are taught from a young age, but it doesn't matter how you feel you get up every morning and you do it whatever you need to do. You just go and do it

Chris Rainey 24:52

if I if I need it things every time that I feel like it, I wouldn't do anything. Yeah. You know, I think also that's one of the difference between people is Eat a very, very successful is that a people that did they don't do things because they feel like they just do it. So Jim is a good example, I did not want to go to the gym yesterday.

Mary Glowacka 25:11

Yeah, it's got to be done, I'm going

Chris Rainey 25:13

to the gym. I didn't want to stay up last night replying to the 40 emails in my inbox, but it's called be done. And those are the separations that you see if they do it, they're consistent with it know that they don't make decisions based on how they're feeling. If you do that, you're always going to be inconsistent all over the place. Whereas you see a highly successful people, no matter how they're feeling, if they made a commitment to themselves, they don't let themselves down, it's a commitment to yourself, that's a great way of letting yourself down and stop you then you just you can't hold hold a commitment to yourself. So psychologically is very hard to be resilient, when you're not even delivering for you.

Mary Glowacka 25:57

That's a great way to put it actually. And this is arguably, I'd welcome a discussion with anyone about it. But arguably, this is, for me, the number one skill in an organization these days, to know how to get stuff done. Regardless of how you feel today, or regardless of whether, you know, you feel lonely, and you feel like no one is trying to help you. Just how to navigate an organization to get stuff done, and not let go and just keep going keep going.

Chris Rainey 26:45

I don't know what category we will put that in terms of like a power skill, like a capability like what would I don't know what you define that as underneath? I just define it as you get stuff done? No, we don't use resilience. It's probably a bit of resilience,

Mary Glowacka 26:59

resiliency, resilience is is for me, resilience is a component of getting stuff done. But I guess sort of the it's a really good question. I guess you could look at it from a mindset perspective, because it could be I think it's just it's really boils down to that mindset. So like what you just said, Shane's

Chris Rainey 27:23

amazing at that is my qualifier, he's like the most consistent. You know, he does, he does things to a higher standard consistently, which is why he's successful. If he says to me, for the next three months, I'm doing 5k Everyday running, he does it no matter. Today, it was raining outside either in case I'm riding my bike to work, because I told myself, I'll do it. And he does the same thing in business. If we say we're going to achieve X, he has a matter what happens, political climate, pandemic, anything, we just find a way to just get it done to your point as well. And it's, there's no, there's no icon, it's just we'll figure out like, even if we don't know, the time to do it, it's just a and that's the thing again, like we talked about this a lot on the podcast is the difference between the knowing doing gap. Right? Everyone knows to how the internet exists, you can find out how to do anything at the moment, right? All strategy btw, totally how there's one thing of knowing it, then there's a whole nother game of actually going and doing it and getting the work done to your point and executing on it. And again, the CRC isn't highly successful CHR OHS have a very quick knowing to doing. It's very quick versus, and they're very, and they're not afraid to fail. They're not afraid to iterate and realize we're not going to get it right the first time. Does that teach us master plan? And they're very fast at making that absorbing knowledge execution and building the minimum viable product and refining and refining, providing feedback, open and clear to the to the to the employees and keep doing it and not afraid. Yes. Not afraid to say we don't know. Yes, exactly.

Mary Glowacka 29:05

And you might not know today, but maybe tomorrow you will figure it out. It's okay to not know in this moment in time. Absolutely everything. And that's also incredibly important and leaders that they know how to navigate their teams, their organizations through a lot of ambiguity. You know, AI Rolls Royces is an engineering organization you know, 117 years of legacy arguably everyone recognizes the brand. And you know that that engineering mindset of that constant you know, iteration and we need to learn because technology is constantly evolving and evolving who constantly evolving, failing forward exact Okay, to me, when I think of the most effective leaders, to me, the most effective leaders are those who know how to operate between strategy and execution. As you said, to your point, Chris, you can find everything in anything online these days. Yeah, you know, and there's so much thought leadership out there, and it's some phenomenal stuff. But then the question is, okay, well, how do you translate all that thought leadership into how you're actually going to act on it in your organization, considering your organizational context as well, because you can take a piece and you need to implement it very differently in one organization in a different organization. It's so for instance, you know, you know about some of my experiences, and I, I like to give that as an example, what I'm about to say, because it's such a, I think, fantastic contrast, crisis management, I went through the pandemic, at Bank of America, over 200,000 people globally, desktop based culture, we enabled 180,000 people around the world in three weeks to work from home, I've never worked from home before. You know, extremely successful organization. Very complex organization. Right. Another crisis I went through, when the war in Ukraine broke out, I was at a startup. And how you navigate through crisis in a global, very established investment bank, and how you manage a crisis, in a non profitable startup are two very different things. So the what is not changing? Really, I've got to manage a crisis. And I've got to help my people go through this crisis. But how I'm going to do it will differ vastly? Well, first of all, I mean, any factor you look at in that situation, first of all, if you look at the resources that you can put behind the crisis, in those two very different environments, right. And I would argue, actually, that in an environment where resources are scarce, scarce, and particularly money, that's where incredible innovation bubbles up in the company.

Chris Rainey 32:40

You got no choice? Yeah, you just

Mary Glowacka 32:43

have to find way to, to make a lot of things happen. And it's not like you have an endless pit of money to just throw at the problem, you've got to think very differently about these problems. Like for me, these are very exciting challenges,

Chris Rainey 33:01

despite how Yeah, what would you say then having led for, you know, global pandemic? In a war? Literally, you know, what, what would the What advice would you give to the leaders who haven't been through that, but maybe, well, they probably will in the future? What advice would you have to them? Give them back up how to manage that both personally? And professionally?

Mary Glowacka 33:20

Thanks for asking this question. Because actually, we had some conversations about it. Some people over the last few months in my company, you've got to trust your team. As in, you've got to be there for your team, or you've got to trust your team and pull on your team. We have to be all in this together. And you have to trust that maybe we've never done something like that before as a team. But we will pull together and we'll just figure it out. So you've got to bring everybody on your team, to that situation, rather than try to be guarded and feel like no, I've got to protect everybody now. And I have to work all of this out. Because actually, no, you cannot work this all out by yourself. Because who's given you the blueprint? Where is the blueprint in 21st century, how to manage a company and its people when a war breaks? I will no one was expecting right that we're going to have a war in Europe in this day and age but unfortunately happened. We don't have a blueprint for that. So yes, you you leverage some of your past experiences, but they will only take you so far. They will rest you have to work out. And honestly in some cases, the more brains you can put behind the problem, the better because actually, you will be most effective when you bring in different people to that situation. So, you know, I was bringing people with, for example, different language capabilities, right because we were mono A trained 24/7 practically situation at every single board day with Ukraine, and I pulled people who can speak multiple languages. And because they were helping us understand what's happening in all the neighboring countries through their families, because there was very, there was just so much going on. And you we couldn't at some point, distinguish what was true and what was not. So we pulled in on some local people who are able to help us gauge the situation on the ground, right?

Chris Rainey 35:39

You need that diversity from a cultural point of view, but also, to know the local context, to your point, as well.

Mary Glowacka 35:46

And the second thing I will

Chris Rainey 35:48

do Dinah, how did you do that in a sorry, carry on with that last few after? No, the

Mary Glowacka 35:52

other thing I was just gonna add, Chris is a second most important thing for a leader to be effective in those kinds of scenarios, you've got to maintain optimism, not only for yourself, because you've got to find a way to keep going every day. But also for people around you, they look up to you. And if and it is your role, as a leader to to give people hope and moments of crisis, not false expectations. So I don't encourage anyone to go and say, No, it's all gonna be fine. How do you know it's gonna be fine? Do you have a crystal ball? But you do not make false promises to people who are going through deep trauma, but maintain optimism and give them hope? Yeah,

Chris Rainey 36:44

how did you do that? Even when you didn't see a light at the end of the tunnel? Or have a problem? Personally? How did you still continue to do that?

Mary Glowacka 36:53

Don't get me wrong, I had some really bad moments, right? But at the end of the day, it's a non negotiable to me, because what is the alternative? The alternative would be, I would have to crawl into bed and just remove myself from the world to maybe. So maybe that's a question to ask yourself in those moments, whether it's work crisis, personal crisis, what is the alternative? If you don't get up every day, and try to go through it? And whatever the answer is, that's your personal answer. And then, and then whatever that answer is, maybe it will help you navigate what, what you can do and how you can react to respond in those situations.

Chris Rainey 37:39

For me, it was like, during the pandemic, when we're struggling, it was what caught me up and kept me going even when I didn't know was the responsibility that I felt like I had on my team. I was saying to SHINee the whole entire panel, I never really thought about myself nosewheel as that and not we didn't take a breath either. So we're just thinking about the fact that our employees have kids, they got mortgages, we have a responsibility to them. Yes. And at no point and that that actually ended badly for me because I wasn't taking care of myself and having really bad anxiety panic attacks because I was just so focused on everyone else but myself so it kind of backfired in that sense because obviously my body was like Okay, enough is enough, you know, but that's what kept me going even when I didn't have an answer you know, we're gonna do as like as you said, you have no choice I hadn't isn't what else am I gonna do? Just what am I just not gonna go get a bit

Mary Glowacka 38:37

I wonder I'm so fascinated by this and I wonder what you're actually going to say about it Chris but I I have been in I've been asked many times you know, in my in my life Why are you so happy all the time? Why are you so positive? Oh,

Chris Rainey 38:57

I'm amazing actually.

Mary Glowacka 38:58

I again I do have my bad days don't get me

Chris Rainey 39:01

wrong way to bring a smile and energy to every room you do. But but

Mary Glowacka 39:05

it's almost like people ask that with a suspicion like what is almost like what is wrong with you? Right? And and it's it's really fascinating for me because you I would put you in that same category Chris you're incredibly happy driven positive. But But what I tend to them say is it's not because I had an easy is despite everything. Yeah, the ability that it's a choice like happiness is a choice and and, and I think I don't know I almost think like being miserable is is a bit of a privilege to be honest with you that you can actually afford to sit there every day on this really comfortable sofa and just fester in your own misery. Like yeah,

Chris Rainey 39:59

I'll send to my friend last night one of the things that I'd say to myself, everyone in my teams heard is 1000 times where I had this inner voice. And it says the same sentence every day, is what I'm doing, saying, thinking or feeling right now getting me close to achieving my goals. If the answer is no, then stop it, don't do it and planing. Emoni being miserable, done it, you know, blaming the world politics, the government, whatever we like, all those things, like even my even my negative talk, like is negative talk and result and positive outcomes, obviously not. So I've had these things very since since I was young. When I say that is what you're doing, I would stop myself mid negative four and go, this is what you're doing saying thinking feeling right now getting you closer to achieving your dreams. Shut up, stop doing it. Wherever is a physical thing, a mental thing available for being a fort. And I something I've had for years, I'd always do it now. And I've trained myself to catch myself. I even I'm physically doing an activity. The other day, I was doing a lot of manual activities. And I was like, why am I doing this? Like, is this getting me closer? Or I said yes to something which I won't say what it is. I said yes to someone made a promise and commitment, and then realize, ah, I've just said something which has taken me off my path. So my coach is like Christian, he didn't say no more. You know, because you're trying to please everyone. But is that getting you closer to achieving your goal? No, then. So now it also greatly creates a great operating foundation. Now when I think about making decisions that change, should we go this direction? Is it going to get us closer to our goal? Yes. No, your personal compass? Yeah, exactly. The personal compass. The answer is we have our business compass, as well, the same thing. Is that decision gonna get as close to here is that partnership, whatever it may be, is that higher? And then we like? So the reason it's important that even during crisis, if you have that foundation, you can still make decisions. Yes, even when things are going crazy, you can just be like, alright, let's not make a rational decision based on that. I look at this and goes, Is this going to help us? No, oh,

Mary Glowacka 42:12

yes. Just in any way there is crisis or any type of really deep change whether it's professionally or personally, that you're going through, it's easy to lose track of that longer term vision or go to your point. Because there's always something just in front of our nose that is trying to distract us. Always. Okay, yes, I'll say yes, because they want to be nice and do pay more hurry, or them a favor rights or something like that. But again, for me, it's often it's more an art than a science, because I think it's important to have perhaps that personal framework that we're I guess we're talking about here. But some freedom in that framework is also needed. Why I believe that to be true, because again, we are just human, we're just we're human at the end of the day. And and and it's okay to sometimes make a slightly different decision that perhaps what the framework would have told you to do. What was the reason for doing that? Or if you just reacted in the moment and said, Okay, I'll do the podcast with you. Instead of responding, giving yourself a moment and saying, I'd love to do it. Let's try maybe next quarter. Okay. You know, it also helps you build that self awareness. And you're more than in tune with those moments where you find yourself, ah, my old habits are trying to pull me here, right? So I want to please, right, I want to please, for instance, in the moment,

Chris Rainey 43:55

you got to have like your little, almost like we kind of seat me and Shane see is our own little incubator, incubator hub. You've got your core product, where you're going and you have you know, incubator hub over here. You're just testing things out. We're going down your direct, every company has it, you see every company, more business product, right? Then after innovation, let us try new things. And then they introduce it and they never know what's gonna work what's going on. We even had that to be interesting. We'll allocate money and investment into certain little things. We don't know where we're going to work out the podcast, you said it was a perfect example. When we started the company and was trying to build the events, business to HR, you know, our HR events or conferences. I came to Shane with this idea of launching a podcast that was not in the plan to the point, right, but it was almost a little side project. I was like, hey, in order for us to succeed, I want to make sure that we can shine a spotlight on the profession in a unique way, which will help our audience Okay, Shane was like skeptical. Hey, we don't want it we just thought I would do we really need to spend too much money on the microphone. That literally was the pump The station in my bedroom. The first ever purchase was was this microphone in our in our bank account, which is hilarious. And all of a sudden, we were sitting in a TV studio. And everyone knows us for the show if if he would have just shut the idea down, and we never would have done it, we wouldn't be here today. There we go. We always you always have to have those things happening. Like you said not part of the plan. Yes, but you want to try try out as well. It's just knowing how when to give up on something is also? Yes. When? Yeah, this isn't working. We're talking like how many companies do you have you worked for Delta? Like, we've noticed just how we do it? Even though everyone knows ain't working, but they're like, Yeah, this is how we do it. This is the person that we do.

Mary Glowacka 45:48

That comes from a place of complacency and comfort. It feels comfortable. It is familiar, kind of in the vein of if it's not broken, why fix it?

Chris Rainey 46:00

Yeah, right, even though everyone knows there's a better way to do it. Yes. Yes. We've all been in companies and probably are in companies right now. That that's the norm. Right. And it's frustrating. I can't change it. It's too much effort.

Mary Glowacka 46:11

There's too much effort to change it. Yeah. Yeah. Or the funny one. I am not a big fan of the phrase future of work. I haven't come up with a better one. So. But I'm not a big fan. And I'll tell you why. The is because it creates in people's minds a sense of distance, that it's somewhere in, in the fiery Yes. And it will always keep moving forward. Yeah. So I'll never reach it. I

Chris Rainey 46:41

always say to future workers now. That's one of the things I always tried to say in like, I'm like the future work is now like, if you said things that we're doing and achieving with AI and hybrid work and gig economy, all these things, that is the future work is now is happening. So if you if you have the vision, like you're saying which everyone has the perception of the future, you're kind of always missing the I love to agree what you're saying, like I don't like the idea of the future of work. It's like no, the future work is now when there is this

Mary Glowacka 47:10

work today. And tomorrow. We've got to come up with something creative suggestions.

Chris Rainey 47:15

We'll post this on LinkedIn suggestions, comments below. Well, I don't know another version of what that I'm sure there's something we're missing. I'm sure someone's gonna put something really cool. And that were fought. But you're right, like the pandemic leaps, leaps shorted us into the future. Like you just you know, we've I think we've got half the time like, like, what we've there's no going back now, basically. And

Mary Glowacka 47:40

sometimes a crisis needs to happen as an let me put it a different way. No one wishes crisis on anybody. Unless you're a psychopath, but catalysts for change, right? But it can be both can be a catalyst for the wrong type of change. But it can be a catalyst, it's again, it's within our gift as humans, whatever happens, what are we going to do about it? So, again, for instance, I remember when the pandemic kicked in. And within three weeks, as I said, we Bank of America we move 280,000 people to work from home, it was the rhetoric at the very start, in simple terms, that we're all going to go back to the office as quickly as possible, because and that was that was that was part of the argument because an investment banker cannot do their job at home. That was just the stance, it's not a job that has ever been done historically, from home. Therefore, it cannot be done effectively, even

Chris Rainey 48:49

though no one's ever even tried it. Exactly. So

Mary Glowacka 48:53

a few months went by, and we had our a half yearly earnings, announcements, numbers don't lie, the bank at the time had the best. Six months, in 10 years. Wow. So that was a really interesting moment. Because you know, that put a bit of a merit to the organization from a mindset and cultural perspective. Well, numbers tell you that the rhetoric beforehand wasn't necessarily true. So what are you gonna do about it? And again, organizations then face a choice, well, are we going to ignore that data? And we want to know, cherry, the legacy culture, it's okay if you want to make that decision, but I agree with every decision there will be consequences of that right? Or do we want to take a different stance and actually learn from this experience? And look at well, how can we perhaps operate as an organization differently and become maybe even better? Because of that difference in how we operate, yeah. And that's the path that the company took at the time, and to their benefit, accelerate a few years later. And I mean, the company obviously continues to do. Great, and to, and so on. But it's always a choice. That's always a choice

Chris Rainey 50:22

or whatnot that probably never would have happened if the correct No, maybe at some point, maybe, you know, long, what many, many, many, many.

Mary Glowacka 50:29

It would have maybe happened on a minor scale, someone somewhere in the organization was starting to live or, you know, lab rise, let's experiment with a group of 50 people, what it will mean, if they work from home three days a week, right. But this happened on a scale, this happened globally, you didn't have a choice. And that was the biggest experiment that no one ever predict, are planned for.

Chris Rainey 50:57

Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. What are you looking forward to most in terms of the transformation journey that you're on now? So you kind of at the at the beginning? What what are you most excited about? Unlocking

Mary Glowacka 51:09

the company to be honest with you? What I mean by that is, it's almost like I'm thinking of how we are in injecting second life into the organization, you know, building on 117 years of incredible legacy. You don't stay in the market for over a century if you're doing everything wrong.

Chris Rainey 51:36

Clearly, innovation is in the DNA, because you thought a company has reinvented itself and we create a new product, you don't stay around that long if you're constantly not innovating.

Mary Glowacka 51:46

Well, it's not that next step in modernizing the organization. And how we get work done, for example, collectively together as one organization, not in silos. How we get stuff done, for also from a leadership point of view, how our leaders lead the organization, and how that leadership, not only may but has to differ from how you would have would have led an organization 20 or 30 years

Chris Rainey 52:22

ago example of how you reimagine that.

Mary Glowacka 52:26

Well, so for instance, from a organizational structure perspective, the organization will become a lot more matrix, a lot fewer intact teams, a lot more project based work agile. And essentially, from an org design perspective, we are moving the company towards exactly that philosophy of here is a problem that we need to solve for. And now, who are the people that have the right skills, capability, experience, thought process, thought leadership that we bring around that problem, and we solve for that problem together? Yeah.

Chris Rainey 53:17

Love that. But then a lot of cultural shift.

Mary Glowacka 53:23

Because the you're absolutely right, because you know, that's, that's just from an org structure perspective. But again, then it's the whole how piece? Well, how do leaders lead their teams in that structure? How do leaders move away from a command and control type management style, here is your job. And this is everyday what you need to do, and I will come and tell you what to do and how to do it, too. Here's a problem. You've got a certain skill set, go and figure it out. I will be here on the sidelines, to remove barriers from your way as you go along to tell you that you're doing a great job, when you're doing a great job to help you steer you in a different direction. If perhaps I see that you're not going in the direction that we need to go to. I'm gonna do it with grace, humility, and we're just gonna try to have a good time along the way rather than burn ourselves like candles from both ends. Yeah,

Chris Rainey 54:25

that's also when you do that everything changes, right? How leaders are rewarded at a conference compensated like the you're moving them from like talent importers to talent exporters, you mentioned similar thing like talent, the talent holding and going to work. Now, you know, this person doesn't just sit in your team and that's it. And they're labeled VIs that what we spoke about earlier about the reason I left my last company. I would love to be in the company when we work on different projects, as always gonna, it's also going to increase the engagement and retention, I'm sure. Right, well actually, we were already Seeing it and companies that are doing already now because people are excited to work on different projects you then use I'd like the the cross pollination of innovation is in collaboration, because how often do you even get to even? I know people that never even spoke to someone in their marketing team before? What a supply chain team or all of a sudden you're bringing these minds together? Yes,

Mary Glowacka 55:22

and, and when different minds come together, that's where magic can happen. But you need to help enable that in an organization and not, for example, drive a culture. And I'm by no means saying that that's the culture right now. It's just it's just an example to a stark example, to paint the picture, I guess. But yeah, so

Chris Rainey 55:46

you got to create a psychological safety first, to be able to even do that and fail forward and try new things and be part of that. Because yes, you don't do that part. So

Mary Glowacka 55:55

to that point, one of our key enablers for the transformation is experimentation, actually, and it's a red thread across across everything that we do throughout the transformation, as an example, our a leadership development programs that some of them I partner with London Business School, with, they have the experimentation piece in their DNA. So our leaders, you know, they're not talked out for six months by faculty from London Business, School frying, they, we put them in activation learning groups, up to five people. And they actually work with their business leaders and facilitated by London Business School. And they actually identify areas in their businesses, where there is a opportunity for either a business or a leadership experiment, and they run these experiments. And then we measure the outcomes of those experiences. And we know from these experiments, that the impact on their leadership style is incredible. They tell us and their teams tell us how their mindset shifts from, you know, the command and control to really empowering your team, trusting your team and enabling your team. And how they

Chris Rainey 57:33

want to show Oh, a long while ago, but I'm pretty sure I didn't want to show ya world. Yeah, no. Yes. Small World up. I think it was about the book as well. Yes, it's been out for a while the book, yes,

Mary Glowacka 57:43

it has been in progress for K was one of our faculty that we worked with. Yeah,

Chris Rainey 57:49

that's so we asked our name, I was like, I've done so many episodes. So it's like your topic maybe like a year ago, I think you have a thing as well, like, especially for an organization like yours, it allows you organizations to be agile and have speed in the market, which is you have to you have to do that. And the current, the traditional organizational organizational structure just doesn't allow for that, as well. So not only you're going to lose talent, as well, but you're also not going to be competitive in the market. So you have to move to a model that I loved. I'm seeing Unilever has just moved to the same model, similar thing, you know, move project based, bringing in different parts of the business to work on core projects. And they have radical transparency within their system, I have what they call it otter use, every one in every part of the company can see what every other person is working on. And you can click into the project. And you can see what stage they're at. They have like a traffic license. So you can even see who's on the project, what's about what the strategy is. And then like the traffic light system of where they are sort of on the journey where their blockers but it's everyone and everyone can see it no matter what seniority level you are, you have to transparency and I thought that was so cool. It's brilliant to be able to like that's a big shift. It's a huge move to that. And they have, I think it's like, head of way of working doctor or now. It's probably not bad. But they have a whole team whose only job is to basically focus on the ways that we now work at Unilever. And I was like, that's pretty cool. That's the journey. It's

Mary Glowacka 59:17

a job we would have not seen. Did you boy even three, four years ago? No,

Chris Rainey 59:22

it's a brand new one. So it's like head aware working zones, because I can talk to you forever. We have to wrap up at some point as well. Like, firstly, it's been cool, really, over the last couple of couple years to get to know you. Like you said earlier you're someone that whenever I speak to you just brings a level of joy and energy and passion into the when you walk through the door. And I mean that I wouldn't say that about a lot of people. And even today I've learned more that that's just a choice that you make. It's not just an accidental thing. You choose to live life and be happy, be grateful and there's only one life we live so that's something I've learned from you and taken out way, what was quite a lot of things I think may have been a conversation, but that was definitely one of them. And I wish you all the best on a new journey. And I'm glad we finally did the podcast and in person. Yeah. So yeah, Chris,

Mary Glowacka 1:00:13

thanks so much. You know, I appreciate your time. I really appreciate what you do for the community. Really hats off to you to Shane to Lisa to the whole team. What you kind of brought, you know, to this world, keep going because you're doing amazing things. And yeah, you know, thanks for having me. And I'll see around in the ether somewhere.

Mary Glowacka 1:00:40

All of us. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks, Chris.

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